July 17, 2023

Wheel nut torque

Use 81 ft-lbs for the lug nuts.

Tires and lift for a 4runner

I will soon be the owner of a Gen-5 (2023) 4runner.

BFG Ko2 tires are probably in my future, but I will wear out whatever they ship with the vehicle before I go down that road. They say that bigger tires will cost you some gas economy, but not much (1.5 percent?).

KO3 tires

The following is a very good video with lots of information about tires in general. He mentions that the KO2 has perhaps the strongest of all construction among offroad tires. He also mentions the KO2 has issues on wet roads. KO2 have a record for inconsistent construction and tire balancing issues.

KO2 tires, E or C rating, plys, etc.

First "ply rating". This is kind of a way to connect to obsolete tire technology. At one time tire ply was cotton or who knows what. Modern tires use polyester and there is no good way to compare old ply ratings to new actual plies. The "right way" is the Load range C or E thing. So, that being said:
load range C = 6 ply "rating"
load range E = 10 ply "rating"
Now, let's talk about the 265/70R17 tires that are stock on a 4runner. You can get them in either load range C or E. For a KO2, the actual construction is:
load range C = 2 ply construction
load range E = 3 ply construction
Aha! You say. But there is more to it than that. It has been claimed (and probably rightly so) that a 2 ply KO2 is "beefier" than a 3 ply tire by some other manufacturer. Without talking about specific tires, it is impossible to say more. The take away from this is that you should have a good deal of confidence in a 2 ply load range C KO2 tire.

Now what about choosing C or E for this 265/70R17 tire? Go for the C unless you are towing or hauling heavy loads. Some people do choose the E to get a tougher sidewall. They will be heavier, ride rougher, and need to be aired to higher pressure to be seated (though I have heard people claim otherwise). The C rated tires are plenty tough enough.

The first of the following articles describes the tire change I would like to do. However he also puts on an Icon Stage 2 lift. He also says "there is a big drop in MPG with bigger tires".

The stock tires

The vehicle came to me, brand new, with Dunlop AT20 "Grand Trek" 265/70R17 tires. I look on Discount Tire and these sell for $301 (compared to $269 for the BFG KO2). In other words, these are not junk tires.

However, reviews say that they last forever. The compound is hard and slick. One guy says: "The worst and most dangerous tires I have ever driven. Slippery on dry and deadly on wet. If you corner on a wet road with this tires you have to be so careful ......" I find this surprising, but it may come down to driving style, perhaps this guy is hot rodding around town. Some people like them.

What about 295 tires

No, I am not going there. Check out this guys video and what he says about the Yokohama Geolanders (which are a "mud" tire). People love the mud tires for the aggressive look, but they are noisy -- and I live in southern Arizona (in the desert). He swapped to TEQ Custom taillights! They may be cool, but $375 for them.

Big tires, lift, ...

I have decided. No lift for me. Stock tires. Ha ha -- that is what I said in September of 2023. In January of 2024 I bought 285/70/17 KO2 tires and am happy. More elsewhere on this.

The following article is key to read, the discussion goes on for 70 pages:

A glance at the table will tell you that 265/70/17 (stock tires) are fine, so are 275/70/17, but 285/70/17 are "yellow" requiring slight modifications. And people point out that different tire brands have different dimensions, even if they are marked 285/70/17 -- and each vehicle is unique.

And consider. A 285 is only 1.6 inches bigger in diameter than a 265. So it will only lift your vehicle 0.8 inches, is this really a big win? A 275 bumps the diameter 0.5 inches (giving 0.25 inches of lift). And rim width needs to be considered for each tire under consideration. And your speedo with get bumped by 3.4 percent for 285 tires, and your gas mileage may take a bit of a hit. Different rims give different amounts of offset, and some people add spacers to fiddle with offset which raises all kinds of issues.

They say that 275 BFG will fit stock on the 4runner, but may rub in reverse full lock (which you can fix by pushing the fender liner forward). I talked to a guy at a tire shop about this. He pointed out that the 275 is an oddball size, not always in stock, and might be hard to get if you are off somewhere. I doubt that this is a real concern for me.

The BFG 285/70/17 KO 2 run small for a 285 tire (32.7 inches). The first guy says he put them on and has no rubbing at all. The second guy says he had to remove the front mud flaps

As a quick aside -- If you are into big tires, maybe you should get a Jeep! Look at this video -- you can get 35 inch tires right from the factory. You can put on 37 inch tires without rubbing and without any modifications. The Jeep has an 8 speed transmission and a lower gear that helps with big tires. You also are looking at a solid front axle versus IFS on the 4runner.
Watch this video regardless, and the second one also.

The 4 Myths: So, a half inch spacer would not bottom the shock, but a 2 inch would. The key thing is whether there is still shock travel when you hit the bump stop.

There is a whole kettle of fish involving the sway bar.

The Toyota suspension has about 8 inches of total travel, split evenly between 4 up and 4 down. Adding 3 inches of lift, gives you 7 inches of up and only 1 inch of down. With more than 4 inches of lift, you would have no down travel and the suspension would bottom out during daily driving.

Before lift, it was minor rubbing on the front fender liner. I grab some old sidewalk chalk and colored the tires best I could then back out of the driveway in each direction to see where the rub was coming from. Took about 5 minutes to unbolt and push the liner forward. Fixed it
The 275 are class E, while the 265 are class C. This means the 275 add 10 pounds of extra weight per tire! You might consider this entirely worth it in terms of getting a tougher tire. Class E is an "LT" tire and 10 ply, and the ride will be rougher. Some like it, some don't.

Another option is the 255/75R15, also known as "pizza cutters". They are the same height as the 275 but narrower and some like them. Also they are class C.

People also say that the KO2 tires may not be the best option these days. KO2 is just a marketing "thing", not a technology. All this would deserve some reading and study when the day come to buy tires.

Do I want bigger tires? Stock on my 17 inch rims will be a 31 (31.67) inch tire (265/70R17). They say you can sometimes move to a 32 inch (if it is a small 32 inch) without issue. Some 32 inch (i.e. 275/70R17) are more like 33 inch and may rub. A 33 inch (285/70R17) is 32.71 inch and will rub. Each brand of tire is unique.

The next issue is lift -- but you have to consider a 2 inch leveling kit) versus a 3 inch lift kit. If you put on a skid plate (particularly an aftermarket skid plate), you may also want to add some lift to recover the clearance you sacrifice with the lift kit. It isn't just the thickness of the skid plate metal, but the overall shape of the skid plate.

Discount Tire

This is where I always end up buying tires. I just paid a visit to ask prices (8-25-2023) Here are prices with certificates. Note that I am not getting any "deal" getting five tires, so I could just get 4 for now, and one later for a spare (or just keep the stock tire on the spare, which is probably the smartest thing of all). Too bad the spare wheel doesn't look good. If it did, you could rotate it with the other 4 tires.
Four BFG KO2 265/70/17 -- 1468.21 (367 per tire)
Five BFG KO2 265/70/17 -- 1872.80 (374 per tire)
---
Four Nitto Ridge Grappler -- 1323.32  (330 per tire)
Five Nitto Ridge Grappler -- 1654.16  (330 per tire)
Both are excellent tires. The Nitto has better on highway performance, yet is a bit louder. The BFG is better off road and will probably last longer. People get 80,000 miles out of the KO2. Getting 50,000 miles is expected and typical.
The BFG has 2 steel belts and 3 poly cord plies. The Nitto has 2 belts, but no special structure.

The compound in the KO2 is harder than the Nitto, hence the tire lasts longer.

One fellow says (and this should be all you need to know):

Dont buy into the Nitto hype. Every mall crawler out there has them. Don't be a lemming.

Ha ha! The truth is that both are fine, and maybe you should get whichever you can get the best deal on. Also look at Falken Wildpeak and Toyo tires. I'll probably go with the KO2.

BMC?

BMC stands for "body mount chop" and is something you need to do if you go crazy with big tires. This sounds like way more than I can imagine wanting to do. I could see a skid plate along with a leveling kit or minimal (3 inch) lift kit -- and maybe 33 inch (285) tires. Maybe.
Have any comments? Questions? Drop me a line!

Tom's Auto repair pages / [email protected]